Crouser & Associates Performance Group program helps printers prosper through
on-site assistance and twice yearly group meetings. For more information by Email or call (304) 342-5100. Crouser Report OnLine is the Copyright Thomas P. Crouser. Material may not be reproduced in whole or in part without written consent. Current reports are on the WWW at http://www.printusa.com.

Plates, plates, plates.

Crouser Report OnLine February 23, 1996

Coming soon to California (San Francisco and LA): Tom and Pamela s trip planned for later spring. Two on-site slots are currently available. If you would like to chat about a possible on-site evaluation, then send me your telephone number and we will chat. Crouser & Associates - Helping Printers Prosper Since 1985

Transmitted from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Sitting in New Orleans during the National Association of Quick Printers Owners Conference, you would think I would have something better to do than think of printing plates. But, that s what I am doing. Hot topic of the conference: On Demand Printing. My question: since when have we ever not done on demand printing? Usually it is the customer doing the loudest demanding getting the printing. Okay, okay. Now, let me catch you up on our plate discussion.

First, we had the question on using Quicksilver Plates on Landscape Format Press. Let me remind you of the question. A New York reader wrote:

Does anyone have experience running Quicksilver Plates on a landscape format press? Our Hamada 885 is a landscape format which accommodates a 20 x 13.5 sheet size. We have been running all jobs with metal plates but find that doing so makes our prices on short run 11x17 work prohibitive. We would like to run Quicksilver plates on the Hamada because that is what we are using on our Multi s and so we have the chemistry and processor. As best as we have been able to determine Quicksilver plates are only available prepunched in a portrait format. Additionally we are concerned about having to make adjustments for the thickness of the Quicksilver material when changing back and forth from the metal plates that we use for longer runs and register jobs. Any info, ideas or experiences will be greatly appreciated.

Bruce and Paul were quick with their responses. First, Bruce. From: LCFOX
To: TomCrouser


Faced with a similar dilemma, we are experimenting with Silvermaster backshoot plates exposed with our process camera. We have a Multi 1860 (15X18) Landscape press. We had originally intended to use our Rapid Access processor with Silvermaster Chemistry. Forgot one thing though, the processor takes 14 width only. Multi does have the Backshoot plates unpunched and we are currently tray developing. A real pain. If volume warrants, they have a 1500 dollar processor for the chemistry. As to plate thickness it is within .002 of the plates and we think we will be able to get by without adjustment. We explored using the Quicksilver system but our CP50 system is not able to raise the chemistry to the temperature needed. Have you considered running the widest material and using a spray adhesive for the tail of the plate? It s messy but for short runs it might be worth it. Hope some of this might be useful. Bruce Ferraro, Redstone Graphics Inc.

Thanks, Bruce. It sure is useful. Here s Paul from Pittsburghland and his experience. From: F1senn
To: TomCrouse
r

Tom: Regarding the silvermaster plates, I use Itek/AB Dick with much success. Multigraphics polyester plates are a nightmare. As far as name brands goes, I know AB Dick and Multigraphics have Mitsubitshi products (chemicals and plates) private label for their respective companies, so there should be no difference. That s all for now.

10-4 Good buddy. Now, let s get back to the discussion on CHARGING for plates on reprints. Doesn t seem to be any end to our discussion on this. Here s how Dave handles his NFP. From: Dave 46544
To: TomCrouser


I regard a plate storage charge as a legitimate charge, in fact not only the plate but the negative and flat as well. But not the full cost of new NFP (new acronym: neg, flat, plate) I charge 20% of the new cost for an exact rerun. The 20% is an arbitrary figure I determined long ago as I think I average 5 reruns before I have to burn a new plate. Steve has an unusual approach to the question.

From: betatosw@crl.com (Stephan Woodward)
To: TomCrouser@aol.com


I think our procedure with customer s plates works pretty well and avoids most of the problems previously stated. We give the plates to the customer. There s no filing, storage or liability. They are placed in an envelope that has storage instructions printed on it. If they store them wrong (folded etc.) we can show them the instructions were right there. I don t see much of a problem with customers taking plates to other printers. I have never had a customer bring a plate from another shop in, I doubt they d take them elsewhere. (and that s if they d even be useable on the other printer s press) We do keep the negs for reburns and minor changes to complicated jobs.

Pricing: We do not charge for a reburn when a plate is provided (I don t think we d be in business too long if we did). If a plate is past it s prime, then we do charge for a reburn, and haven t had any customer complaints yet. We do itemize the bill. The customer sees how much the plate, ink, type, printing, bindery, etc. costs. I don t see what the problem is with this. We have often found that an educated consumer is easier to work with and knows what they want. Writing a bill this way helps them learn.

One last thing, if LH, envelopes and cards run together in the same colors we charge only for one mix and one wash, but for three separate runs. It s as if you were paying for 3 black ink runs, a wash and a mix. Keep up the good work!

Steve Woodward betatosw@crl.com
Newton, MA http://www.crl.com/~betatosw
Newton Copy Shop
241 Walnut St. Newton MA 02160


Hummmm. Different. I would recommend a ink charge for each item, but let s see what Earl would do. From: earl@cdsnet.net (Earl Eyre)
To: TomCrouser@aol.com


A simple answer: yes, I charge for the plate each time. I price a job and the repeat price is always the same (unless costs have gone up). Sometimes I use metal plates, sometimes Silver master and it would get very confusing if I tried to explain to a customer why a particular job is run way or the other. The only thing I don t charge for again is typesetting or graphic design...if nothing has changed.

Okay, Steve doesn t, but Earl does. Hey, Mo, settle this for me would ya? From: Moprint
To: TomCrouser


We don t have a replate charge if we do not have to reburn plates. What we have is a rehang & press set up charge. these chargers are hidden in the total print charges. By the way it should never take 12 min.

Thanks, Mo. I agree, it should never take 12 minutes to find and degum a plate, but unfortunately I have been in many shops where they spend 45 minutes looking for the plate they did last time in order to save $2. That s where the problem is and I agree, it should never take 12 minutes. More realistically, it should be six minutes or less to find and restore the old plate. Ok, let hear from Frank, please. From: PLEASPRINT
To: TomCrouser


Tom: I agree that you should charge for the plate each time the job is produced. If you don t then you will lose money twice. Once for the time it takes to find and condition the plate and second for the 40 minute discussion that either you (the owner) or a front counter person must take to educate your customer on why they are being charged extra on this run for a new plate!

I would even take it one step further. I also charge for the negative again, unless it is a large book or very complex print that would make it excessive to do so. My reason for this is that we as printers tend to look only at our costs and selling prices in regard to production. I feel that this is really a marketing issue. If the customer is willing to pay $200 for a letterhead job the first time why would you drop your price to reflect the saving of the negative (or plate). My feeling is that if you do this its like throwing a $10 bill in the trash each time you do a re-order! I can never understand why people in our industry always feel like they must pass their savings from increased productivity on to the customer, especially when the customer doesn t ask for it!

Maybe I m off base but this way we do it and we don t have customers complaining about excessive neg or plate charges.

Frank, PLEASPRINT@AOL.COM

Thanks, Frank. Let s here from Dave Fellman. What s up, Dave? From: DFallT
To: TomCrouser


Tom...In the big press segment of the industry--especially in the segment where big-dollar jobs are the norm--the concept of saving on the re-order is much more important to the buying process (and therefore the selling process!)

In quick printing, I think it s much less of a concern on the customer s side. I think 99% of a quick printer s customers will be happy enough if the reorder price doesn t go up too much, and purely ecstatic if it stays the same! This is an opportunity for greater profit, and I think a quick printer should take it.

I also think you re right that many quick printers put too much detail into their quotes. The time to go deeper into the variables is when a customer shows some price reluctance. Otherwise, keeping it simple benefits both parties.

Dave Fellman

Thanks, Dave. Hey, Ray, what do you do up in Chicago? From: RayANDREWS
To: TomCrouser


On jobs which can go one of three ways (megalith, metal or our new direct-to-plate-from-disk offering) we kind of split the baby on these charges. We charge $25 for new film and plate. $10 for meg or direct-to-plate. Part of our selling if there is a price objection with metal, is to point out that this is a one time metal plate charge . However, on reprint, we have a $10 plate retrieval charge, which I suppose, would about cover the charge of burning a new plate if we didn t file it (which we do, for our convenience). I should point out that our invoices list plate making type, along with other ancillary services such as typesetting, cutting, folding, etc.-but do not itemize the pricing. Also, at least 80% of the time, this kind of detailed pricing questioning never even comes up.

Okay, let s just hear from everyone else with no editorials. Here we go. From: Willieee
To: TomCrouser


Tom, you have it right. How often we have tried to use a plate that was oxidized, just because it somebody thought it saved time and money? If the plate charge is listed separately some customers will ask for the plate - so they can Keep it. This almost never works. The kinks, abrasion, finger prints, corrosion and general grief are not worth it. The reason we make metal plates is to deliver a quality job, efficiently. Keeping that in perspective, bury the cost in the job. - - - Bill From: HPLACE
To: TomCrouser


Tom, I agree wholeheartedly with your point of view. As owners of small businesses who ourselves are customers of other businesses, we may be too sympathetic to our customers when it comes time to announce the price for printing.

Productivity is the Achilles heel of many shops. By failing to take into account, and charge for, the time our employees spend on tasks (like preparing used metal plates for storage and subsequently retrieving and preparing them for re-use) we disable their ability to be fully productive. Anyone who has figured a budgeted hourly rate knows that the biggest effect comes from the assumptions you make about productivity, and that the second biggest effect comes from labor-related costs.

Maybe if we changed our mind about metal plates and negs and thought of them as disposable (like we do photo direct plates) we could overcome our sensitivity about charging for plates everytime we print the job. --Nancy D.

From: Michae0912
To: TomCrouser


Tom: I agree with you. Our practice is to charge, let s say, $25 for a new plate and negative the first time, store both, then pull both for a reorder and charge $10 for a plate storage fee . We have almost no trouble with this (last time it was challenged was over a year ago) and have never had a customer just refuse to pay the storage fee . (The bottom line is, we don t even tell them about the storage fee, unless asked point blank.)

As you suggested, we discuss items in as much detail as the customer/client can comfortably handle; but we never offer too much information, unless specifically asked. Like you said, why shoot yourself in the foot - sometimes saying too much just causes the printer to have to make bumbling excuses that makes the customer even angrier. Your logic on this seems pretty flawless to me. MIKE, Printing Center, Bartlesville, OK From: EdieSG
To: TomCrouser


We store many plates for customers and do not charge them for the storage and gumming of the plates. We have set up a fairly high charge for the initial plate burning of $30 per plate which does not include film. So on a 2 color job, we charge $60 for plates and $24 for film. We also charge only once for a color wash on multiple items with the same ink color. I am interested to see what other s charge for these items. Edie From: PrintDept

To: TomCrouser



Dear Tom, In response to the question of charging for plates, I have a few comments. Your statement that you don t advocate keeping plates, and you do suggest burning new plates every time assuming it would take longer than 12 minutes to find and check the condition of the plate. Question #1, where do you store the negative if you don t store the plates.

Tom: usually in a job jacket or job envelope with the rest of the material for the job - except the plate.

If you store the negative, why can t you store the plate with it.

Tom: One could, but generally I don t see it. My experience is storing the negative, other material and plate usually ends up as a sticky glob for someone always sticks the plate into the envelope before the gum is dry. That s for smaller presses. Larger format presses usually stores the flats in large drawers (or other systems), again away from the plate because of the same problem, I assume.

This is how we handle customer plates & negatives (store them together). After the original printing we store both the negative and plate in a large manila envelope. If after 5 years the customer does not reorder the printing, then the plates and negatives will be destroyed.

In response to how you should charge for the reprinting. On an 8.5 x 11 job that requires a metal plate has an additional charge of $25 on the repeat business for this job we bill a reused plate charge of $20. Sometimes we don t even change the price from first time price to a reused plate. What the customer doesn t know will not hurt them, as you said you sell the total job, not individual pieces of the job.

Thank you, Rob Robertson Subj: Re: Plate Charges Everytime?
From: EdieSG
To: TomCrouser


We store many plates for customers and do not charge them for the storage and regumming of the plates. We have set up a fairly high charge for the initial plate burning of $30 per plate which does not include film. So on a 2 color job, we charge $60 for plates and $24 for film. We also charge only once for a color wash on multiple items with the same ink color. I am interested to see what other s charge for these items. Edie Subj: Re: Plate Charges Everytime?
From: Dave 46544


I regard a plate storage charge as a legitimate charge, in fact not only the plate but the negative and flat as well. But not the full cost of new NFP (new acronym: neg, flat, plate) I charge 20% of the new cost for an exact rerun. The 20% is an arbitrary figure I determined long ago as I think I average 5 reruns before I have to burn a new plate. Tom:
Well, now that we have the charging for plate thing settled, I guess this won t start a new round of messages on plates. Er, well. Okay, send me any second thought messages and we ll publish these too.

That s it for now. Happy Trails. Tom Crouser

Crouser & Associates - Helping Printers Prosper Since 1985

Crouser & Associates Performance Group program includes two on-site evaluations by Tom Crouser each year along with two group meetings. Management training is held during the group meetings along with participation in a meeting with non-competing printers. Join others who have decided to run their business instead of the business running them. Reply to by Email to Tom Crouser for more detailed information or call Clark Workman at (304) 342-5100. Or fax (304) 342-5187 or contact crouser@ibm.net.

Return to Crouser Index at http://www.printusa.com/articles/crouser.htm

Date inserted: Tuesday, February 27, 1996 12:05:12 PM

Return to PrintUSA home page WWW at http://www.printusa.com.