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Answers: Best Equipment Bought and Dampeners on 2 Color Presses

Copyright Thomas P. Crouser, October 13, 1995

The following two questions were ask of you last week. We ve consolidated your responses and they follow. Oh, yes. The two questions were: #1: We recently installed a new Ryobi 512 w/ Crestline Damps... a bit too soon to tell however I think it s One Awesome Press for the $$$.

#2: We ve never owned a Ryobi 3302, C300 etc. However, I think anyone who runs process color (even pleasing color) without Color Bars or some type of control strip is inviting disaster. Even if you don t use a densitometer, you must have one constant place to check color... some shortcuts just aren t worth it.

Just messing around is one thing but if it s Print for Pay we re talking about... Do it right... or don t do it at all. Jim Paul NPPC. In the eight years we ve been at it, the best piece of equipment purchased is actually 2 pieces and both for the same reason: they are the 5090 copier and the Ryobi 3302. The reason: simple: productivity.

The 5090 will easily support a 1 million copy month and our experience has been roughly 250k hiys between major maintenance, usually longer. it will pay for itself on our plan at 250,000 impressions per month and service here in the Arlington, VA area is superb.

As for the Ryobi, it runs on average at more than twice the throughput of our original AB Dick 9850, cost us $20,000 less than would a Century 3000, and in the 24 months we had it here, we ve installed only one new set of blankets and a couple of rollers. and yes, you can run envelopes on it if you re willing to adjust the register feed area for the run. We usually don t, still use the 9850.

To answer the other question, we use diamond dampening on the Ryobi.

Sirharryo Is Richard Harrison @ Harrison Printing & Graphics, Arlington, Va.

TOM,
Question 1 - The new Super T-Heads would have to be our best printing purchase. Setup is much faster than older T-Heads because you can raise and lower the image while the press is running. The Super T is built much sturdier than older models.

I had a hard time deciding between the Super-T and our PS-10 rotary numbering system from Pierce. Forms we used to order out from forms manufacturers are now done in house with the help of our PS-10. If I could have 2 votes I would recommend both of these.

Question 2 - We do not currently have a true 2 color press.
Louie

Question #1...MBO Model, B16 Folder (16 X 22 ) pile feed. Although I own a trade bindery, this is the single best folder in the world for speed and accuracy. Not the easiest to set-up and run, but after training this will consistently make money for any printer who runs 25M or more on a regular basis.

Best equipment to our employees implies a machine that worked out of the box, the first time, did what we expected it to do, and has been very reliable in our environment. The following qualify.

Multigraphics 20 power cutter. We bought this machine in a hurry several years ago; paid list for it. It has never been officially installed, we unwrapped it, plugged it in and have been using it ever since. We now wish we had a larger cutter, but this one has paid for itself over and over.

GBC electric punch and comb binder. For years we punched manually. A large order several months ago prompted us to purchase this machine overnight (from NSC International in Hot Springs, Ark.) They airfreighted it to us, we set it up the next day. My bindery operator would quit if this machine broke down. We punch large jobs with this machine and bind with our three manual machines.

Itek 616S photo direct platemaker. We pay about $1200/yr. for service on this machine and agonize every year about whether or not to continue the contract. About once a year, a minor problem occurs and our local AB Dick dealer has it repaired within hours. The only reason we continue the contract is because of the guaranteed fast response time. This machine just keeps going and going and... We ve used silver master material from a variety of suppliers, each insisting that only their chemistry will work. This is one machine we can and do count on to work every morning when we arrive at the office.

Xerox 1090 copier. This must be the DC-3 (C-47 military version) of photocopiers. Costs a fortune to purchase through Xerox (I won t tell you what we paid), but solid engineering and excellent support service make it a winner. When we get the volume, we ll get a 5090.

Multi 1250. Bought it used, used, used. Another DC-3/Jeep! We ve added a t-head (used) and have local repair. We have a split blanket on it and only run envelopes and business cards.

We ve got lots of other favorite items but you only asked for 1.

The best thing we purchased was Kompac dampening systems for our AB Dick duplicators. They have reduced set-up time, reduced waste and improved the quality and coverage. We knew they would be an improvement, but did not realize how much we were wasting in time and material before we had them installed.

Chris Baker, PDQ Printing, Biloxi, Mississippi

Best printing equip Itek 975 w/ T51. Best overall Canon CLC300-results consistently impress & please customer.

Question 1.
Best piece of equipment would be a toss up between my Ryobi 3302 and my new Ryobi 582.

Question 2.
My 3302 has Crestline dampening system. Ours is a four roller set and they work great. If you don t use color bars and a densitomer, it makes life very tough. Since we print two colors at a time, it helps to get the first two colors right before the second two colors go down. It would be like hiking in the woods without a compass.

Q1: Our ITEK 3985.... bought it used for $36,000 from a shop that couldn t figure out how to use it.....read practically not used. It allows us to print 11-17 bleeds, 2 exact register colors at the same time...print color bars on process color jobs. Drawback.....full 11-17 registers very good but not good enuf for high quality 4c process.... excellent 4c results on smaller sheets.

(My ITEK 430 camera comes in a close second.....only needed a repair guy once in six years.....it just works day in and day out.....better than most of my good employees.)

Q2: Conventional--molleton cover dampening system. Works well, but my press guy has the skill level needed for this system. If I need to replace this employee I might consider a continuous---Crestline type dampening depending on skill level of replacement employee. On 4c we print color bars and use a densitometer.. no shortcuts.
Gary

I ll combine the answers for Q1 &Q2 as they are related in our case.
The best piece of equipment we have purchased would have to be our Ryobi 512. New in November of 94 - it has run day in -out ever since it arrived. Our operator needed less than 2 days training. I could go on and on about this press - it has yet to disappoint us in any way. We run single color all the way to process using paper and metal plates without changing chemistry.

As for dampening: we run the factory molletons (although we are changing to the REDRUNNER 3M molleton system. We chose the molleton system because we knew it would run both paper and metal plates and we had a feeling the Crestline option did not yet have all the bugs out of it (which we found out recently to be true).

Process color: I don t know if we could run process color w/o color bars and a densitometer. It takes all the guesswork out.

We would be happy to discuss any of the above with those considering a purchase of a 512.
Phil Van Kampen

Question 1: RYOBI 3302 with Diamond dampening system, Super Blue, IR Dryer and Ultre 72E Imagesetter with a Rip-It Software RIP

The Ryobi has been here for 14 months and the Imagesetter, 6 months. The quality work the two of these machine can put out is top of its class . I can turnaround a 4/4 brochure in 48 hours (with color-keys & folded) after the customer has handed me their disk. Most our work is 2/2.

Question 2: * Diamond dampening system, Super Blue, IR Dryer are most adequate if you are running gloss paper & solids with quick turnaround (makes the harder jobs seem really easy)
Steve Gass
Heritage Printing & Graphics, Inc.

Answer to Question #1: Through the years, those pieces of equipment which ultimately had the greatest impact on the business were: our first typesetter (a Comp IV) in 1976; our first T-Head; our first high-speed copier (a Xerox 8200); and our first Mac (in 1985). But in more recent history, our first (a CLC-1) second (CLC-500) and third (CLC-800) color copiers have each had significant impact, and the color connectivity provided by our first color RIP device equally so -- to the extent that color copies and output now account for a percentage of our sales equal to (declining) offset (while duplicating remains fairly stagnant).

No personal experience with the presses referred to in Q2, but will read responses with interest, as the purchase of either a 3985 or a Century 3000 is in our very near future.

Michael Vogel
Sir Speedy Printing
Milford, CT

Dear Tom,
Here are answers to your questions:
1. Best piece of equipment. Toss up between a used Kodak 150 copier purchased used 5 years ago used for $4500 and an Itek 1218 platemaker purchased used when I started 10 years ago.

2. Two color press dampening system. We have Crestline dampeners that were purchased new when we got the Itek 3985 used about 7 years ago. We do not do process color. We don t believe this is a good market for this press.

We just acquired another shop and along with it we got a Hamada c248 landscape press. We will do some limited process color for a few of our better customers. This is made for process color.

Will look forward to your summary.

Regards,
Carl Gerhardt

2.The best have been a bookletmaker - in 1984? - because it got away from hand gathering, etc.; and a polar cutter about 3 yr. age - thanks to John Stewart- even though I got the smallest model (for bad reasons) , it has probably already paid for itself in better productivity & reduced waste.
Leonard

Tom,
I can only reply to Q1. I would have to say it s the old Itek 1218 Platemaker. Kind of the unsung hero. It just keeps going and going! If it goes down, everything stops.

Thanks for your interest and involvement.

Question #1:
For the price our envelope feeder has been our best purchase. It has double productivity on #10 s and tripled productivity on announcements.

Question #2a


We use the Diamond dampening system and have been very happy with the results.

Question #2b


Although this is not Kosher, we stopped using color bars and started matching to the color key. First 2 colors (either M Y or C K) are matched to the corresponding color key overlays. The second pass is matched to the full color key. The results have been very good and eliminated color bar problems on 11 x 17 bleed jobs.

That s all for now, Keith

Best piece of equipment is easily the AB Dick 360. It is the VW Beetle of presses. The 9800 series may be a little bigger and a little more sophisticated, but the 360 was a terrific machine.

Second to that would probably be our Dahlgren (now Diamond) dampening systems. We loved the ones on our 360s. We just pulled the fancy system off our 9870D (anybody want to buy it?) and put the Diamond system on.

1) 2 Machines: Itek 3985 true two color press (and the) Kodak 1575 Digital copier - as a backup, not as a primary production machine

2) Kompac Dampening - moderately adequate

I guess I m being too literal when you ask about best piece of printing equipment...are you referring strictly to printing or any piece in the shop? If it s the later and I eliminate the press itself but stick to printing equipment, per se, I would say the powder attachment. It allows us to do gloss stock in a breeze and lay on heavy coverage. I remember the first time we did a very, very heavy coverage job...one I learned later we weren t supposed to be able to do on a 9800. It was two sided and no matter what we did that huge solid offset on the piece under it. So at 11 pm I m running the press and my business partner is pulling each sheet out as fast as she can and throwing it (literally) across the floor so it doesn t land on the previous sheet. Powder cured that!

If you mean printing equipment in general, I would say the Challenge Pro Fold air feed folder. Our previous toy took forever to fold more than 500. We would actually groan taking a 5 or 10,000 job that needed folding because it would be another midnight job. Now we don t even think about folding a job.

Actually, in all honesty, the single best piece of equipment is one my wife gave me for my birthday this summer: an inflatable raft. I have discovered the thrills of white water rafting on our beautiful Southern Oregon rivers! When I m fighting my way through a rapid there is absolutely no way I can be thinking about the last job I screwed up or all the stuff I should have gone in on Saturday or Sunday and gotten done. It is a great way to experience thrilling relaxation (sounds like an oxymoron) and go back to work on Monday ready to hit it! What better equipment can you buy?

Hi Tom,
I should preface my response by giving you a brief description of my company s position in the market place. I would not consider myself a quick printer because we don t have any walk up traffic and we do not produce copies. I am a small format commercial printer with a quick printing attitude. I have a strong commitment to membership in NAQP and PIA because I think they both complement each other and I gain solid knowledge from both organizations. My pre-press dept. supports the most current versions of just about everything that is considered major but we usually remain about 1-2 generations back on the hardware. 2 duplicators with T-Heads and Diamond dampners and one Century 3000. Novell Net and PC s for admin and operations. Computerized estimating since the day we opened back in 1987. 95% Corporate clients. Feedback from clients and competition is that we seem to get it right the first time. 6 employees, team driven. Estimated sales 1995 $475,000.

The Century has it s own proprietary dampening system which is continuous (alcohol optional) and seems to work quite well. We outfitted the duplicators right out of the box with Dahlgren dampners back in 87 and they both became too expensive to repair in 1994 (they got a lot of use) so we replaced them with the next generation of Diamond dampners (MotoMax)(Diamond rollers bought Dahlgren s small press line a couple of years ago). The Diamond units seem to be beefier with better motors and are a little less finicky then their predecessors. They are an excellent add on and I would highly recommend them. Kompacs and Crestlines are also liked by many people but I have no direct experience with either. One note about the Diamond units. The MotoMax dampners have a separate motor driving the unit so it can be controlled independent of the speed of the press. This gives talented press operators a greater degree of control over moisture for challenging inks such as PMS metallic mixes or pastels. The other two brands are gear driven off the press and are easier to use for your average press operator but sacrifice the greater control.

I believe a pressman who says that he doesn t need color bars is akin to a pilot flying through fog and declares that he doesn t need any flight instruments. Color bars are a critical diagnostic tool to ensure consistency throughout a press run and to my knowledge there is no other way to determine if variance of ink density is occurring. The densitometer obviously also is required.

One production tool that I find invaluable for printing critical color is the 2 color chrome. We do not believe in color key material because it is usually hand developed and varying pressure during the development process can rub away the dot. If you have that kind of error, you can t rely on the outcome to be an accurate guide. We look at a four color job and determine the 2 most dominant colors and then pull a 2 color chrome of those two and a 4 color chrome. The cost of both is built into the quote. This allows us to be very accurate on the first 2 color pass, we just match the chrome. Then for the second pass we just match the 4 color chrome. It takes the guesswork out of 2 pass process work. I would also add that this step is unnecessary if one has a 4,5 or 6 tower press. But most of us smaller printers have 2 towers with dreams of more.

I do appreciate the E-Mails that you are sending as I am always looking for a better way to do things. I appreciate your efforts to make more information available so that we can all learn to run our companies better. I hope you find this sharing of information beneficial as well. See you online.
Scott

#1 The Itek 3985 press. It has enabled us to expand our capabilities tremendously. We have 3 other presses equipped with T-Heads, but they cannot begin to match the quality we have with the 3985.

#2 We use Crestlines on both heads. Super Blue, UV and air-powder. My pressman has had no problems with the unit. We run everything from postcard size, #4 bar envelopes to 12 x 17.5 cover. We use both metal and mega plates. More mega than metal. We do use color bars and a densitometer for process work. For spot color, we skip the color bars.
Ned

Tom,
Len & Walter, III (a.k.a. Walter, Walter, Walter) agree that the 665CD Hamada is the best. The cost was realistic. It produces a lot of work, requires little maintenance, produces good quality and in the words of Len, It s built like a small tank.
Walt

Best piece of printing equipment we purchased was a Rollem slitter. We do thousands of business cards -- with our slitter we can cut 10,000 in an hour. You couldn t match it with a programmable cutter. We have one of those also and we love that also. A cutter without a programmer is just not adequately productive.

We have an Itek 3985 with a Crestline dampening system on it . The verdict is not out yet on it. We have many adjustment problems. We currently are not doing full color on it so we don t have color bars or densitometers.
Edie

1. Best piece of printing equipment: 2 Canon 700 s with Cyclone Rip.

2. Now using Crestline Altra on Itek 398 which works great. Much better than the standard dampening system with the molleton covers.

The best piece of equipment ever bought. That s a toss up. We have and have had for years, a AM Multigraphic Copy Center. We run multi-original manuals on this thing like crazy. We have had instances when a big multi-original job (1 million impressions) has came in. The customer wants partials. What we do is stick the first few hundred sets on the DocuTech and run the remainder on the automated. At the end of the day, the DocuTech is lucky to have filled a table with paper and the automated has produced a skid! And look at the cost to purchase and run the two machines.

The other machine is the Ryobi 522. We chose this over a GTO because of the run speed. It will run 13,000 an hour. And that s 11 x 17 NCR. Need I say more?

Question 1: What is the best piece of printing equipment you have ever purchased (excluding computers, DTP, estimating programs, etc.?

Hi - The Fuji 65 19x26 single color offset press. Super registration - coverage - very reliable.

Question 2: We have some users of Ryobi/Itek/Century class two color presses who are interested in finding out from other users: What type of dampening system do you run and do you find it to be adequate? Do you run color bars on process work and use a densitomer or how do you get around this? Any other production tips?

Don t have a century class press - always run color bars on process work and use a densitometer.
Peter Peck -- Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained
Andover, MA -- email pep@tiac.net
508-475-8188 (Home) or 682-2555 (Office) - fax 508-682-2677
Visit My Home Page: http://www.tiac.net/biz/pep
My Printing Business Pages: http://www.tiac.net/biz/pep/SPI.html

Question 1: What is the best piece of printing equipment you have ever purchased (excluding computers, DTP, estimating programs, etc.)?

The list of equipment that I ve purchased for our pressroom over the years is fairly limited. I used to run A.B.Dick s. Now I own 2 Ryobi 3200 presses with T-heads, Crestlines dampeners and Super Blues. They are the reason that I m still in business. I couldn t compete in today s market with anything less than this.

Question 2: We have some users of Ryobi/Itek/Century class two color presses who are interested in finding out from other users: What type of dampening system do you run and do you find it to be adequate? Do you run color bars on process work and use a densitomer or how do you get around this? Any other production tips?

I only have the 3200 s but I think that Crestlines work great. I do use color bars and a densitometer for process work.

We have used Kompaq, Crestline and Diamond. The Kompaq work very good with less experienced operators because they don t keep ajusting the water, we have used them on 360 s and 375 A B Dick. The Crestline was on a Hamada which did not work out and I still have for sale. It was too critical on adjustments. On the new 9870 we put a Diamond on, but it did not like alcohol substitute. When we went to the real stuff it worked fine. Onyx plates are used on all of the above.
Dick Prosser

And, finally, a word of thanks to all of you who submitted answers and ideas for other questions. Thanks for your participation. We hope this is of service to you.

Happy Trails. . .Tom Crouser Crouser & Associates Performance Group program includes two on-site evaluations by Tom Crouser each year along with two group meetings. Management training is held during the group meetings along with participation in a meeting with non-competing printers. Join others who have decided to run their business instead of the business running them. Reply to by Email to Tom Crouser for more detailed information or call Clark Workman at (304) 342-5100. Or fax (304) 342-5187 or contact crouser@ibm.net. Return to Crouser Index
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Tuesday, January 02, 1996 7:12:39 PM